pacman inkee

prop 8

I have heard a lot of people talking about moving to Canada again. So I will just repost something that I posted in a comment elsewhere about my feelings on the matter, with some choice wording that I ripped off from wndrbr3d who is much more eloquent than I:

That is the WRONG ANSWER. If they really love their country, they will stay, and work hard for the next few years and take another swing at it. No one said gaining equality was easy or quick, and it shouldn't be because things that are easy or free have no value. It was 145 yrs almost exactly between the final emancipation proclaimation and last night where for the first time at the highest office in the nation there was true equality even being considered. (how many times has jesse jackson run for president and gotten like not even 1%?) 70yrs ago racial segregation was alive and well. 50 yrs ago it was illegal for interracial couples to marry. Today we look back on those things with chagrin at how backwards society was.

I have a lot of faith that in our lifetime we will see gays as truly equal in this country. But if people just give up at the first or second or fifth setback, they don't deserve the equality they claim they desire.

I have no respect for people who say "i will leave the country if ___". That is not how democracy works. You win some, you lose some, and when you lose you turn around and fight harder so the thing you were fighting for has meaning, and you show that you honestly believe in what you are fighting for. Social Change comes slow, but I believe every setback should be taken as a challenge to truly make a change. Lets get to work on an amendment repealing the amendment to place on the ballot in 2yrs.

EDIT: this post is specifically talking about Californians moving to Canada not the rest of the country. Do what you want, you people always do anyway, and I really don't care about national politics ironically :D
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Also, Canada is not much better on the gay marriage issue. Some Canadian friends of mine were just telling me about it last night; I was surprised.
for me its like, if you believe in a country, if you are PART of that country, then you are willing to go thru the badtimes to make the change you believe in. You don't cut and run when shit doesn't go the way you want. That's not what democracy is.

The only reason I will leave this country is if god forbid at some point they reinstitute a draft. Because unless it is a war we believe in, I don't believe we should be pulled to fight in it, and I won't let my son be forced into fighting he doesn't believe in, or jailed because of that belief.
While I tend to agree with this (change is slow, equality needs to be fought for, etc.), I also don't see what's so horrible about forum-shopping for a country that meets one's needs today.

Not everyone wants to expend their life being a martyr for a cause they may never live to see the payout for. If you do, great. But it seems problematic to tell someone else that they have to suffer when they have a chance not to.

Loyalty to a country only goes so far, and it's a two-way street. Lots of people are suddenly finding that they don't care overmuch for a country that doesn't care for them.

Now, the people saying they're going to move to Canada (who, of course, have far tougher immigration standards than the U.S., incidentally), but never actually will ... yeah, they're annoying.

But if someone says "y'know what? Fuck this. I'm going to opt to live in a country were I won't be pandered to every few years while continually being treated like dogshit in between election cycles," more power to them. It's their life. They're not obligated to be miserable so nebulous future generations can be equal.

Some people are fighters and some people aren't.
because you don't cut and run at the first setback. That is why. If you do truly believe in a country you stay to fight so that the next generation doesn't have to do it alone. Leaving is *the* most selfish thing you can do because not only are you abandoning the fight, you are abandoning the rest of your supposed comrades, many of whom do NOT have an option to leave.

Basically its one of the whitest things you can do. And you really only ever see white people whining about it. Because in the end most white people are selfish spoiled brats who whine and take their ball and go home if they don't get their way.

Life is hard. Rights are important. But if they are important, the inverse is that you are willing to fight for them. What you say by leaving is, this is not important, not for me, not for the future, not for anyone. Because it's not worth fighting for.
was jesse jackson ever a serious candidate?

Very poor example.

I think the only reason he got any votes, was because conservatives would register democrat to vote Jackson in the primaries in the off chance that he gets the nomination and thus gaurantees a reublican president...

seriously he could run again after 8 glorious years of obama where everybody are millionaires, peace is established in the middle east, Obama himself cures aids and perfects cold fusion, and lastly, all white peopple have died, and he would still lose the election...
that is exactly my point. jesse jackson was never even considered a real candidate. We have never had a black man that was considered worthy of candidacy.
I totally agree. And as hard as Prop 8 passing will be, its important to see that there has been progress. The last time this was on the ballot it passed pretty easily. This time it took a lot of money to bring it to a dead heat. Things are shifting in our direction. I have no doubt that we'll win next time if we don't all give up hope.
I actually think it's okay in a democracy to say "Actually, the majority of people in this country don't share some of my fundamental values, I'll move somewhere where the majority do". I think that's a far healthier than trying to impose your values on other people.
I don't think it is the majority tho. I think it was shady fucking tricks used by people with another agenda that did this in. I don't think that people truly would be THAT upset about gays being married if there wasn't that heavily funded ad campaign about how it would mean gay sex would be taught in schools. And the No on 8 campaign reacted too late to counter that. But I think that next election will be a different ballgame. And I am willing to work harder to make sure that is so.
I'm not leaving California
Christ, this is the first political battle that actually got me out on my feet, phone banking, working the polls, bugging my friends and family, raising money...

So we lost by 4 points. We lost by 20 points in 2000 with Prop. 22. That's progress. I absolutely do think that in the end we'll have no real progress on this issue without the citizens of a state blessing our unions through the ballot box, and not through the courts. Otherwise, people will keep screaming "Judicial activism". I, for one, have not really felt like same-sex marriage has been legal since May, even though the court said so... it's been entirely too tenuous, and the passage of Prop 8 proves it all too well.

So, what's next (aside from the inevitable lawsuits on behalf of 18,000 married couples that are sure to clog the courts for the next decade)? Another fucking proposition. More groundwork. Our ground battle SUCKED. The No on 8 campaign, though admirable (and it was an amazing campaign), was conducted mostly over the airwaves and phones. We need people in Bakersfield and Fresno and San Bernardino and San Diego and... We need people convincing their friends and neighbors how important this is. We need some more old people to die off. Change takes time.

2 years ago when I moved to this state I was one of those cynical "ah, there's no hope" types. I'm no longer like that, even though last night was a setback for gay civil rights.

No way I'm leaving California.
Re: I'm not leaving California
this almost made me tear up dely. My heart really does break for all of you, but I can see the way to victory is so close. Even if it takes ten years, it will be so worth it if we actually legislate to that victory. And you are right it was *so close*! It was totally the late paranoia with gay sex ed classes in schools that did it, and I think we can so beat that if we get out there and talk to those people who voted yes. Show them that there is nothing to fear and we all love the same.
I have no respect for people who say "i will leave the country if ___". That is not how democracy works. You win some, you lose some, and when you lose you turn around and fight harder so the thing you were fighting for has meaning, and you show that you honestly believe in what you are fighting for.


THIS X 1000000000000000000
Hopefully this will get shut down again in the courts. After 2-3 more times, the Mormons will be bankrupt and then we can all go raid their secret vaults in the Utah mountains and paint them pink.
Exactly -- it'd be great if people left the country! America needs more babes, not babies.